The Fifth North American Conference on the Family and Corrections

September 14-16, 1998 - Bethesda, Maryland

Children of Prisoners: Voices of Experience

Emani Gaynes Davis and Chesa

Tuesday, September 15, 1998 - 1:15 - 2:30 PM, Auditorium, Tom Alexander: Moderator

Tom Alexander
For those who are coming in late, once again my name is Tom Alexander. I'm the director of the Family Works program of the Osborne Association based out of New York City. And I work out of two prisons, Sing Sing and Woodburn. This workshop today is entitled Voices of Experience, Children of Prisoners and these two young people are first hand testimony to what young people go through. Back in 1994 Osborne sponsored a workshop called Children left behind. So the first part of our gathering here is going to be viewing that eleven minute workshop and then after that, I'm going to introduce these young folks, ask some brief questions then we are going to turn it over to the wonderful audience here. So, right now we can view that video.

Video
This is a short film about a very special group of children. On the surface they seem like any child. Some like school, some like sports, all of them need love. Although they look like other kids in their class, they are different. The children we are talking about have a parent in jail or prison. "The first time that my dad had went to jail I was five and a half". "He always says he loves me before we get off the phone or whatever, but how much cause he must not have been thinking about me when he was running around doing what he was doing." "Even though he was incarcerated, he still provided me with a lot of things that I needed in order to get through from a day to day basis in terms of support, in terms of being self-reliant in terms of understanding that it's not my fault." "The detective came to the house and explained to me that my mother was arrested, and I didn't cry, I just stood there and listened to him like I didn't believe it, then after he left I broke down". Song...
With over a million adults in jail or prison in this country there are several million innocent and invisible children of incarcerated parents who receive little or no help from the criminal justice system. Children are the hidden victims. They have done no wrong yet they are sentenced to a different school, to foster care, to a strange part. My brothers and sisters, the handwriting's on the wall Those children will take their mothers and fathers places unless we do something. For more than a generation, research has consistently indicated a strong relationship between parental incarceration and their children's future criminal activity. That's why the Osborne Association, which has been working with prisoners and their families for over 75 years hosted a conference on these children who have been left behind.

It is important not to isolate the fears that they have when they learn that their parents are in jail. The anxiety that they experience. The guilt that they experience. Many children fear that maybe something that I did contributed to the parent being in this particular situation. "My grandmother, she said it was my fault. She told me that if you would have told your mother something she would have stopped. I don't know how an eight year old child can tell their mother to stop doing this and stop doing that and expect the parent who's getting high all the time to really stop. I don't think so." They will have to bear the stigma that very often comes from going into school and saying where's your mother and your father. They now have to somehow process this. I've seen children, I know you've seen them also who have to sort out for themselves what do they say to their friends and their peers. Do they oh, my mother is up at Bedford. My father is in Richmond " I talked about it when I was real little, like kindergarten, first grade and a lot of kids? parents wouldn't let them play with me. Um, and so I guess that kind of um, made me stop and I started to lie and say well he's down South, he's working or he's doing different things." In the United States, it's estimated that approximately 70% of the total population of women confined in jails and prisons are parents of minor children. Many have no available resources or mean and their children must be placed in foster care.

"One day, somebody called the prison and said that Jackie was placed in foster care. So, all my nightmares became reality. Now there was no way that I knew who the people she was with, how they were going to treat her, what kind of feelings they had about her, was she safe, was her brother with her, were they in the same place where she could protect him and defend him, and what was I going to do? There was nothing I could do. All of a sudden she got lost." What we have to understand about children is that they if they're not loved they die. There's no way around that. I'm saying that they die in terms of psychologically thinking of a child as an innocent carefree, someone who embraces life. That dies. If you look at the statistics it's 11, 12, 13 year olds who are killers, rapists, who have stopped living in a psychological sense. It's not because they've chosen not to live. The nurturance, the life-giving love has just not been there. So children must love. They have to have love to survive. Because the children of incarcerated parents don't fit within the specific mandate of various governmental agencies it is up to organizations like the Osborne Association to design model programs that can serve the needs of these children. "It's been absolutely proven that people with strong family ties are less likely to return to prison than people who have no family connections.

And so, Family Works which is the program that we operate for the children of prisoners is based on the assumption that if we can reunite and maintain communication between prisoners and their children that not only will it help the children but it will assist the prisoners in achieving a real re-integration into society when they return. It teaches parenting to incarcerated fathers in fact or prisoners who are interested in being fathers. And it works with them on maintaining communications with their family. It also operates a children's center in the visiting room so that when children come to visit the prison, instead of being in the regular prison environment, they're in a child oriented setting where they can visit with their fathers and have something to do and be kind of encouraged to have a real communication experience. The purpose of the program is both to reduce the trauma for children visiting a prison, but much more importantly to enhance the ability of the incarcerated fathers to really parent from prison. You can be a bad citizen and a good father or a good mother from prison. "He set examples for me by even though he's being detained that education is important. And, you know that's where you should put your efforts in." "My mom always tried to pay attention to...and he contributed a lot to the way I was raised, or as much as he could." "I cry all the way home, the good byes are the worst. They really are."

Good afternoon, my name is ... I work for the department of corrections. I'm not only here as a specialist but I'm also here as one the caretakers of one of the children that has been left behind. I work, I also have kids of my own, you don't want to turn down and tell this kid no we can't go see your mother because I can't afford it or no, it takes to long for us to go and see your mother. So what do you do you turn around and you try to take these kids half way across the country. From New York State. I never knew the state of New York was so big. I'm traveling with an eight year old kid that wants to go see his mother. So this is why I'm here. Because I know how these children that are left behind feel because I'm one of the caretakers of one of these children that have been left behind and I would like to see things change so these kids don't have to go through this and the families that are kind enough to have these kids to keep these kids from going into the foster care system don’t have to go through what I have to go through to make sure that my nephew and my sister is going to be alright." I’d like to leave you with one more of my reading quotes that I think is a very good one. It’s from Dr. Henry Smith who was a teacher at Harvard for years. I don’t know whether he’s still there. He said this, " It is not our responsibility to bring happiness to our children, that they will seek for themselves. It is our responsibility to recognize our capacity for causing them pain and not to call it by any other name." Thank you. Song.

***end of video***

Tom Alexander
Alright, that was part one of our conference and I'd like to go into part two. One face you see if familiar, maybe a little older, hair a little longer but she's here. I'd like to first introduce Chesa. Chesa is an eighteen year old senior in high school. Getting ready to go to college in September. Presently residing in Chicago. Chesa's parent's, both of his parents have been incarcerated since he was fourteen months old. Chesa's being raised by friends of his parents. He hasn't been legally adopted but friends of his parents who over the years have even strengthened their friendship have raised this fine young man. He is presently part of the United Model United Nations and they go to different campuses debating and talking about issues relevant to 1998 political issues, social issues, those type of things. Chesa sees his father maybe what, four times a year. He sees his mother maybe six times a year. They're in different facilities one further away from the other. Both in New York. He resides in Chicago as I mentioned so traveling has been difficult but he makes do. He also has a very strong family base and as I spoke with him earlier he was very brilliant. He said I have four parents, not two. And that's what he believes and that's how his life is going.

Secondly I'd like to introduce Emani Davis whom you saw in the tape. Emani is twenty years old and is presently a sophomore at SUNY Newport in New York and her father has been incarcerated since she was six years old. He's presently residing in a correctional facility in Virginia. By her residing in New York, she sees him as frequently as she can. She just got back a few weeks ago from seeing her father. Her brother Ari was scheduled to come. Ari's 15 but Ari's having a little difficulty in school. Not everything is alright all the time so we keep it real. Ari was supposed to be here but we will pray for Ari that Ari's doing well.

Mr. Davis has been turned down for parole four times. There's a feeling that he may be turned down each time he goes back but we don't buy into that that's how the system works. Um, these are the two young people who graciously came to speak today. I have ten questions that I'd like to ask them. Some of them may be questions that you would want to ask. Once we do that as I mentioned if you have any questions I would respectfully state that you raise your hand. I'll give numbers and we'll answer them the best they can.

First question, how would you answer the question that you are different from most children of incarcerated parents? We hear about your successes and some may say you are the exception. How would you answer that question?

Chesa
I think there's three major things that separate me and create a different life for me than most kids have. The first thing is that both of my parents are serving life sentences since I was fourteen months old. I think that's pretty unique. Secondly, my grandparents, my biological grandparents had enough money for them to make it possible for me to visit my parents pretty regularly even though I live in a different state. For me to go to a private school and for me to see a psychiatrist for numerous years. The final thing is that I've had a very stable family even though my biological parents have been in prison. Even though I've been separated from them since I was fourteen months old. I've lived with a great family, two parents, the same parents my whole life, and two brothers, who I've been lucky enough to have.

Emani
For me, I think that although we are exceptionally lucky, that we are not really the exception. Not all kids whose parents are incarcerated are in foster care and that it doesn't really change the circumstances. It makes it easier for us to be able to deal with it that we do have people taking care of us that are family of my mother, but it doesn't make the loss of both of his parents, nor my father any easier.

Tom Alexander
Question number two, have you ever been afraid that you would end up in prison yourself?

Emani
There was a time when I was twelve through fourteen where I think a lot of people worried that I was going to end up in prison. I was wild and angry but I think I knew I wasn't going. When you grow up in a visiting room that's usually the type of effect that it had, at least that it had on me. Um, my brother is definitely a different story. We're a little concerned about him but that hasn't really been a big concern for me.

Chesa
I didn't really think about going to prison that much until recently when I noticed that some of the people in prison with my parents are younger than me. That sort of freaked me out a little bit. I don't really think of myself as an adult and there's 17 year old kids in prison with my mother whom I meet in there. Because I look at the kids in school with me and I look at me and their lives and it's just so different. And a lot of times it's really unfair that it's that different. The kids didn't do anything just sort of random luck, it's really arbitrary. But when I was younger, I think like Emani said I think a lot of people were worried if I was going to go to prison. I never really worried about it that much myself, no.

Tom Alexander
Question three: Have you ever found yourself in a situation where you felt you could not say where your parents were and why?

Chesa
Not that I can remember. I've always tried to be as open about that as possible. I've been lucky that I haven't lost any friends. At least not that I know of because of it. People have been very kind about that. For me, the best policy has always been to be open and to be honest. Partly, I've been able to do that because my parents were honest with me about things. I've found that just in terms of dealing with my own issues, internally, the best way to do that is to talk to other people about it and try to teach other people who don't know that much about what is going on, how the prison system works, the problems with it, and how it's affected me to have two parents in prison. It's worked out very well for me to be able to talk about it.

Emani
In my case when I was little I thought I could share it with people so I did and as you may have saw in the video I talked about how I lost friends. Kids parents didn't want them to be around me and so, I did start to lie about it and said he was working somewhere else. It wasn't until I think I was old enough to actually be able to handle that kind of rejection that I was able to just kind of deal with it. Like, this is my life and that's the way it is, and if you can't be my friend then sorry. It was a problem for a while but now it's like whatever.

Tom Alexander
Are you ever angry for your parents going into prison?

Emani
Um, yes. I think there's a period in which in order to get through that with your parents you have to be angry. I think I was nine when, it was around my sixth grade graduation. That really triggered this kind of anger that came out. I stopped speaking to my father for year. I wouldn't visit him. I didn't want to talk to him on the phone. Yes. I was very angry. Here's someone who's life is supposed to be about his kids and here he was, had other things. He had another agenda and it landed him in prison and it, you know, the end result was that his kids were without him. I was very angry, but we've been able to work past that. We have a good relationship now.

Chesa
Before I can remember, I used to be really angry with my parents. When they were first arrested, I was obviously way too young to remember. Whenever I'd be taken in to see them for visits, I would ignore them. Especially at first and one thing I did was I took it out on myself. I was depressed and I acted out and, when I was younger. There were a few times I asked them, well why did you do that? What were you thinking? What about me? Why'd you have me? You could have done that before you had me. But for the most part, I haven't been angered. I respect the fact that they stood for what they believed in even though they didn't do things the way I would have done things, it wasn't smart what they did, I still respect them for who they are and they're still great parents. I still love them, so I've been able to deal with that pretty well.

Tom Alexander
How were you treated when you visit? And, how would you change the rules of visitation if you could?

Chesa
It depends a lot on which prison we're talking about. I only have experience with the New York State prisons. My mother's been at Bedford Hills Correctional Facility pretty much since she's been sentenced. And that's a great facility. Sister Elaine Roulet whom you've seen on the video has done some great stuff there. She's actually speaking, she has a workshop here that I would suggest you all go to here today. She's made visits there phenomenal. And she's helped me and my mother develop a great relationship. I'm not sure that there's really anything that I'd recommend at Bedford Hills. It's pretty good the way it is. I don't have any ideas for how to improve it.

As far as the men's prison, that's another story. My dad's been to just about every New York State Maximum Security Prison, and they're all pretty bad. Right now he's in Comstock, Great Meadows Correctional Facility and the visiting room there is almost unbearable. I almost never go to the visiting room. New York State has a somewhat unique visiting program called Trailer Visits for family reunions which enable me to go and spend the entire weekend with my father. We bring our own food in, we're in a separate part of the prison and that's great. That's a really good program. I do that with my mother sometimes as well. But, the visiting room with my father, especially when I was younger is just impossible. You can't just sit there for hours and not do anything. The other side of the table, virtually no physical contact, no games, no space to walk around, he can't look at the food. If I want to go get him food, I'm the only one who's trusted with the money, I have to make decisions about what he's going to eat and as a little kid, that's really difficult. So, there's a lot of changes that need to be made in the visiting rooms. The trailer visit system is pretty good.

Emani
My father's in Virginia and there's no such thing as trailer visits there. Um, the state of Virginia, he's been in a bunch of facilities down there, but everyone has been um, I would say close to unbearable. The people are, well, I don't know, it's down south so they kind of seem nice but then there's this other stuff going on where they're like very um, I think they're ok with me, they're ok as we're going in but for little kids, the searches and things like that are very confusing and scary, and you're almost made to feel like a criminal because you have to go through things and little kids. You don't know about beeping and you don't know about other things and you keep going back and forth and then, you get in and the same people who were smiling at you are talking to your father like he's a five year old and are constantly reminding him of things he can't do.

And this is your parent, and this is your parent being treated like a child in front of you. I think it's very confusing. There's children centers in some of the facilities in New York, but in Virginia there's nothing and up until about maybe three years ago, we didn't even have games. Now we can have cards and different things like that, but when my brother and I were little, just sitting there and writing on a paper towel for six hours was just like, wasn't going to get it and when you're like six, having conversations is just not what we're into doing. So I think the visits are very uncomfortable. If I could change it there would be probably a children's center in there and you know if we can't have children visits, you know at least let kids sit on their dads lap or have some kind of, I think that's what we miss as children is the nurturing, the loving, the holding, and then we're in there and we're looking at them and we can't really touch them.

Tom Alexander
Lastly, do you think that incarcerated parents should be honest with their children as to that incarceration and were your parents honest with you?

Chesa
I think that they should be. My parents have always been honest with me and I've always been glad of it. That doesn't mean that they told me every little detail when I was fourteen months old or when I was three or when I was four, but whenever I had questions, I went to them with questions. They always tried to answer honestly. I've always appreciated that. And I know I've seen a lot of other kids in the prison when I've been visiting whose parents aren't honest with them and I always feel really bad for those kids and I think they're gonna find out eventually and then it's sort of like, why'd you do that again? What were you thinking? You know, just like when they got arrested, you have the same questions once again. To me, if you can be honest with your kids and talk about it, that's the best way to start working through the problems. There's a lot of issues that kids are going to have to deal with when their parents get put in jail and the best way to deal with them is to be honest and open with each other and talk about it and just start working through them as soon as you can.

Emani
Um, my mother always worries, I think when we get to this question because she thinks I'm going to bash her. But I'm not going to do that this time. Um, my parents weren't exactly honest with me. And I now have been able to see there were a lot of reasons for my own benefit that they weren't. Um, I think all children are inquisitive. I think I was excessively inquisitive, I was always asking when was daddy coming home and what was going on and why was he there. You know, when kids are small you can't tell them, you can't really give them natures of crimes and explain to them time. But I think that my father in his own way either of denial or just trying to make it easier for me, made time promises: I'll be home by the time you are, and I'll be home by the time it's this graduation. And um, I think that whether he knew he was lying or not, kids remember those things and three months to a little kid is a lot different to a 20 year old and that is tomorrow.

When they're not there tomorrow then you get angry and they lie and um, I understand you're not always able to be honest but I think that as honest as you can be and to not build a lot of fantasies about the horse that they're going to buy you or the alligators that they're going to let you have. That type of stuff they remember and we, they think we forget but we remember and we tell all our friends that we're going to have a horse when we're twelve. And we're twenty and we don't have a horse and our dad's not home and so, I think that's something that's very important yes, staying honest, as honest as you can be and not building up dreams that you can't live up to.

Tom Alexander
Have you ever felt that you're parents were trying to control you from prison?

Emani
Well, I'm daddy's little girl, so yes, daddy likes to try to control me from prison. Especially when I got to that dating age. That was a big time for him to try to control everything and threaten boys and do all that fathering stuff. I think, and I'm going to let Chesa make this point. I think there does need to be balance about what's appropriate for them to think that they can control and what's not. And um, I appreciate the impact and the opinions that he voices to my mother and to me about stuff. It makes me feel like he is parenting from prison and he is involved in the decision making but, I don't know it can be at certain times a little overwhelming. And you get a little pissed off because they're not there and they have all these ideas and opinions but, you know, they are your parents.

Chesa
Parents should try to play an active role in their kid's life. They need to be there and connect and bond and be part of our lives. It's also important that they can separate that and that they're not our immediate and direct caregivers and that they can't make all of our decisions. My parents have been good at that. I think they've had a hard time dealing with my foster parents and they've had arguments, they didn't want me to move to Chicago, they were still in New York. Not wanting me to go to a certain school. They've kept me out of those arguments so I don't know that much about it, but I do know that my mother loves being part of my life and she has intimate relationships with a lot of my friends and she likes me to bring friends to come visit her. And I like doing that. I like having her be part of my life. But, it is important that both of my parents understand, especially at this age, I'm going in my own direction and I'm going to be my own person and they made choices when I was fourteen months old that took them out of that position to make choices for me. And they can't do that anymore. Even when I was younger they weren't in a position to control my life. I think one of my psychiatrists helped them understand that a lot. They had sessions with them. My parents have been pretty good about it.

Tom Alexander
I'd like to go into stage three now. I know there may be some questions from the audience here so I'm going to respectfully ask that we have the two mikes we could line up and any questions. We have two questions, we have three.

Questioner in audience
Hi. I came here because I have a husband that's incarcerated and my stepson is incarcerated. My husband was incarcerated when he was seventeen and my stepson became incarcerated when he was seventeen. So, a lot of times I feel like, as a stepmother that I missed something here and I did something wrong. And I guess what I need to hear from you is, you're around his age, how do I help him? His father is unable to because he's incarcerated. You know, what can I do as a stepparent to really kind of fill the void and break the cycle. To change him from the path that his father went in. I thought I was doing everything right, only I wasn't.

Emani
First, I think you need to not take the blame for that. At seventeen, we're kids but we're old enough to take responsibility for our own actions. Will he be coming home soon?

Questioner in audience
Yes, two to four years.

Emani
And how long has he been in?

Questioner in audience
He's only been in about six months.

Emani
Oh, so he's got a little ways. Um, I think that one thing that might be important is that he have communication with his dad. They write

Questioner in audience
Once a month.

Emani
Where is this?

Questioner in audience
My husband is in Delaware, but my stepson is in Pennsylvania. They're going to be allowed to communicate once a month.

Emani
That's important. A lot of what he's going to need to hear , I think is going to have to come from his father since that is obviously the path he's kind of on. I'm going to let Chesa handle it while I think about it..

Chesa
I don't think there's an easy answer at all. If there were I don't think we'd all be here right now. But, you need to try to support him and love him and let him know that he can be who he wants to be if he dedicates himself to it. And, that's not as easy as it sounds, I know. Just being supportive. Helping him when he gets out. Helping him to do it himself. Helping him accomplish that to me is like the best thing. Don't beat yourself up over it. You know you've done the best job you can do. Nobody's perfect. And there's a lot of other things around that are out of your control that have resulted in him being in jail. It's tragic and a lot of the problems, you have to look at the economic situation in our country. When you look at people like Bill Gates with 39 billion dollars, you just wonder what's going on and how is that just? We talk about the constitution what principles this country is founded on. A lot of those aren't consistent. Some of them are, some of them are ridiculous but.

Questioner # 2 in audience
Hi, I work with female offenders in Virginia who often ask what the best way is for them to go about building and maintaining relationships with their children while they're locked up. I also have visited at the institution where your father was in previously. That's where I recognized you from, I thought you looked familiar. I have watched you interact with your dad. You do have a close relationship with your dad. I can see that, which is amazing to me in light of the fact that you live in New York, and he's incarcerated in Virginia. What , how can you help me and how can I help these women. What kinds of things can help me in cementing that relationship?

Emani
I think what helped me with my dad was him giving up the, not the I didn't do it, but this kind of conversation that it wasn't really his fault kind of thing. I think that he really needed to take responsibility for what he did. And he really needed to just say sorry. Just I messed up and I'm sorry and I love you. And I think that if parents can do that and kind of leave , I taught in a prison in up state New York and it was like some guy was talking about how he sent his kids hundreds of pages about his case and how he's been framed. And kids don't need to hear that. Alright, you're framed, but you're still doing twenty years so. And I think that if parents kind of separate the case and take the responsibility to be willing to listen to your kids. To be willing to listen to what they need and just say sorry and then kind of work from there. I think that's key.

Questioner # 2 in audience
And what role did your caregivers have? In helping to facilitate the relationship with the incarcerated parent?

Emani
For me my mother was willing to drive nine and a half hours with two small children.

Chesa
My caregivers were always really understanding and help me plan my life and to sort of have a double life. Live in Chicago and fit all my sports and my schoolwork and my parties in and still make time to go visit my parents and drive me to the airport and pick my up. I've been flying alone since I was five. For the four years before that, they were with me on the plane, they were with me driving me all over the place. As for your first question, I think there were a lot of things that I think what Emani said is right. Taking responsibility is the right thing to do. That way you can move on. But there's a lot of little things that you can do to help create a strong bond between mother and father and children. And, depending on which prison they're in, everything isn't possible. Writing letters, my mother has been able to record some stories and songs and poems and books on tape and send me those tapes on a regular basis. Doing projects, when I went to visit my mother we constructed, like a human ear, you know get little kits. Again, it's not always possible, depending on where you are. Making video tapes for each other, I've been able to make video tapes for my parents and show them my house, my friends and my school. Little things like that. Writing letters, talking on the phone, when we could afford it, anything like that is good.

Emani
For me my mother was willing to drive nine and a half hours with two small children.

Questioner # 2 in audience
If we could do videotapes in Virginia that would be good, we have been working almost twenty years on private family visits. But you see, we're still not there.

Chesa
Good luck.

Questioner # 3 in audience
My question is, I really thank God for you all being here today because I know I will leave here with a burden lifted. Having a legacy of crime as a part of my coming up, my thing is, my question is how much of an influence did your father have on you. How much of an influence does he have? If he doesn't have much influence where does the influence come from instead?

Emani
My father does have a huge influence on my life, on a daily basis. Um, he is in some respects my hero. He is driven me to do a lot. My father was very politically active throughout his life. And I think that a lot of that, my mother was too. I think that a lot of that was instilled in me and it gives me a real pride for my people and a real job to do. A real mission. Um, my father has a huge influence on my life because there's not a day that goes by where I don't think about him. There's not a day that goes by when I'm not missing him. As much as my life has been up till now and as much as it will continue to be an expression of my love and appreciation for him and my mother for allowing me to have the relationship with him. I will continue to do this type of work.

Chesa
I know for both of my parents, I respect them a lot and they do have influence on me, but like I said earlier, I make my own decisions. I am at a point in my life where I want to be my own person and that doesn't mean I don't go to them for guidance. I do, I go to all four of them for guidance all the time. But, I respect my parents a lot. All four of them. I feel really lucky that I have four parents whom I think of as parents. I call them all mom and dad. And I love them all a lot and they're all brilliant people who have helped me a lot in a lot of different ways, so I've been lucky in that sense. I'm not sure that everyone can say that. Having a stable home situation has enable me to deal with a lot of my problems and to work through stuff.

Questioner # 3 in audience
One other question that I need you all to answer for me is should I carry, I have a son who is now incarcerated. And I was, I modeled a riotous lifestyle before him. And uh, just kind of molded him into becoming a criminal. I really feel bad about it, especially now that he's doing time and here I am, you know, in support groups and therapy and getting it together and he's in prison. You know, because of what I taught him. And, I need to know - should I feel guilty because during the time that he started justifying his misbehavior because of my past lifestyle, during that time I was seeking to be corrected. And what I need to know is should I continue to carry the burden because it's had, feeling like wow, I created a monster. Should I continue to carry that burden?

Emani
It is heavy, and I think you need to give it up. And I think that you do need to take responsibility for the part that you've played but, instead of saying this is my fault, then provide the support, provide that correction now then. But, you didn't put whatever in his hand that got him in trouble, you know what I mean? There's plenty of us, two of us that are sitting right here, who could have led that lifestyle. One could say that our parents influenced that because of what they did, but we didn't choose that, so your son chose that for himself. And that was a conscious decision, and it's not your burden. You did set a kind of example for him in which he may have thought that was okay, or he may have some way been thinking he was just like daddy, so now I think your only responsibility is to try to provide that support and correctness now with him.

Chesa
I agree with what Emani said. You need to sort of move on, and you could have done things differently but dwelling in the past isn't going to help your son right now. And while it's important to take responsibility for mistakes you made in raising him, nobody's perfect. No parents are perfect and help him get through what he's going through right now. And don't worry so much about what you did in the past and try to help him and support him right now. Don't beat yourself up over it. You need to be worry about him and beating yourself up isn't going to do that for him.

Questioner # 4 in audience
You guys have been so wonderful at counseling adults on what you can see are obvious concerns. I wonder what kind of advice do you give or would you give to children who find themselves in the positions that you've been in.

Chesa
Like everything else, it depends on the situation, you know, every situation is completely unique and I try to tell the kids be strong, have faith in yourself, be who you want to be. You need to sometimes step outside of what's around you. I know a lot of kids for whom it's difficult. It's a lot easier to get guns and drugs than it is to get books and clothes. It's a hard situation to be in. Like I said, I'm lucky enough not to be in that situation, but that doesn't mean they can't still use some of the tactics that I've used or that Emani's used. And I don't know for me, the most important thing was pulling myself together and saying to myself, all right, look Chesa you've got to be somebody, you've got to pull yourself together, and you've got to control yourself and do what you want to do. And for me, that's what I've always used, just think real hard, concentrate on something, make a goal and force yourself to accomplish it.



Questioner # 4 in audience
So goal setting is an important strategy?

Chesa
For me, yes.

Emani
I think for me a lot of what it ended up being was that I started seeing that people expected me to get in trouble so as kind of ha, ha I did it, I did it. And so, I think that my real advice to other kids though was something that I didn't have. I didn't have other kids growing up, so I felt very alone and my brother is four and a half years younger than me, so when I was six, my brother was two, and we weren't having conversations and sharing feelings. My brother is very withdrawn anyway so I think that getting together with other kids and being able to share that is very important. I agree with him about setting goals because there's a lot of kids that can use this. I did for a while. I'm not going to school because I miss my dad. And I'm not doing my work because my dad's in jail. It doesn't work, but kids can use that. I think if they can see that, see kids like us that yeah, it can be like this and we can go to college and we can still overcome that. To keep going and not weigh that against you and keep going.

Questioner # 4 in audience
Thanks, I think you've inspired all ages.

Questioner #5 in audience
Thank you for being here today. My question is, I work with inmates, we do counseling at the agency that I work with. A lot of times inmates are going through a difficult time because they're children are going through a difficult period where their children are going through that period where they're angry and they don't want to visit, kind of like what was described. What advice would you give to an inmate who is in that situation, as far as waiting, they've made attempts to reach out, their child is not ready, what advice would you give to them?

Emani
I think what my father did with me and what worked, at first he was not allowing it, but then he just let me have that time. I think that a lot of these brothers, it does make them very angry and they are defensive about it and the children have no right to do this. But we do have a right to do that. And it's actually, I think healthy for us if we get through that now. Because I'm sure these kids love their dads and I'm sure they'll come around. But, if the father's don't back off a little bit and allow them to have that space, the anger is just going to grow. They will just get more and more angry, and the father's can actually create a situation in which they will have no relationship with their children. Just wait it out I think.

Chesa
You can't force kids to have a relationship with their parents, you need to give the kids space and time and you can have the father just say to them, look I'm always going to be there for you. I want to have a relationship with you and I want to love you and whenever you need me, I'll be here, but that's all you can do. Especially when the parents are in prison, they're not in the position to say, you need to come see me, you need to write me. They need to not try to do that, because all trying to force the kids to see them or have a relationship with them is going to do is drive them farther away. It's going to work against them for the most part.

Questioner # 5 in audience
During that time would it be helpful for them to continue to write as you said to let them know that they're there when you're ready?

Chesa
I think so, I think keeping up contact, the kids can open the letters or throw them out or whatever but the parents should continue to pour affection on them, not in a way that's smothering but in a way that let's the kids know they're there and they want to be part of their life, I think that's great.

Questioner # 5 in audience
Thanks.

Questioner # 6 in audience
I have also a question about anger. I gather that both of you for quite a number of years when you were young were in this situation. If that's the case you can hopefully help me. How angry were you at society and the criminal justice system and the law enforcement systems and so forth for what had happened. Even recognizing perhaps that your parents were perhaps to blame. Did you remember being angry and are you still angry?

Chesa
I don't know if angry is exactly the words I would use to describe my feelings. I have a lot of strong feelings about society and about the problems our society has and how they cycles that we keep putting younger and younger kids in prison for longer and longer amounts of time. But because of the nature of my parent's crime and who they are, I haven't been so angry at society. I know they made choices and they made mistakes and I think there are a lot of improvements that need to be made in this country and in this world, but I don't blame society so much for what happened to my parents.

Questioner # 6 in audience
Even when you were young you didn't?

Chesa
I don't think so, not that I remember.

Emani
For me, I'm still angry. Some of it has to do with my father being in prison, but some of it has to do with being a young person in America today. I think that we have serious problems. I think that our criminal justice system doesn't work, and I don't think it's fair, and I think, I have a personal issue with law enforcement. I don't think the way to get kids to respect police officers is to arrest parents in front of children. That's not what happened with me, but it is what happened with some other kids in the video. I think that their judgment is a little off. I don't think that I necessarily blame them. I think my father was 100 percent responsible for what happened, but there may have been things that happened before and there may have been demonstrations of behavior that we see growing up that I think are inappropriate and I think keep me pretty angry.

Questioner # 6 in audience
Just a follow up question. Where does forgiveness come into play in regard to this? For instance, a parent that has maybe made some mistakes have a way through forgiveness be restored to society quicker or do you feel that forgiveness is even an issue at all?

Emani
To forgive society?

Questioner # 6 in audience
Well, no I was thinking of society to forgive them. Would it help to have society to be more merciful and forgiving? Would it help you personally to be forgiving yourself? If you felt society had treated your parents in a more merciful point of view?

Emani
I think yes, it would be helpful, I think it's a dream that may never come true. It seems like the criminal justice system or prisons are getting worse. Yes, I think they forget they're sentencing entire families and children. There's not just this one guy who committed this crime. We all are doing twenty years. We've all done fourteen years. He's done all his time with his parents. So yes, I think they forgive who's involved yes I do think they should be more merciful. And I think that people change. My father is 56 years old. I really don't understand his threat to society right now but, yes I think Chesa can address that too.

Chesa
I agree with what Emani said. The long sentences just don't make sense. I know a lot of people in prison, and most of them are really good people, my parents among them. Both my parents have done a lot of work educating people in prison about aids my mom has written books about being a mother from prison. There's no reason for either one of them to be incarcerated right now. There's just no reason. It's a waste of taxpayer money and my parents could be contributing to society and there are a lot of other people in prison who could be contributing to society. We're using prisoners as scapegoats and they're to blame for a lot of our problems and that just creates more problems. We don't have that much money in this country that we need to be throwing it around and wasting it keeping good people locked up. It's really tragic.

Questioner # 6 in audience
I should ask an answer for this instead but I'll ask a question instead. Has it made it difficult for people who have wronged you as you have grown up especially for you to have a relationship with them or to forgive them? You don't have to answer that question but it's funny how things relate sometimes.

Chesa
Could you repeat that'

Questioner # 6 in audience
In other words, as you have been concerned that there has been a lack of forgiveness with society, with your parents, has it also interfered with your relationships with people, your own peers and so forth when they've wronged you. Are you quick to restore those relationships or has it made it difficult for you since society doesn't forgive your parents for you to forgive others that you are peers with'

Emani
So are you asking us if we are able to forgive others because there's a lot to forgive'

Questioner # 6 in audience
Has it made it difficult to forgive because society has prevailed to forgive?

Chesa
I don't associate a direct relationship with my ability to forgive, although probably subconciously it has had some affect on me. I think of myself as a somewhat forgiving person though.

Emani
I agree

Questioner # 7 in audience
Both of you are doing a great job. One question I wanted to ask, when you were younger did you ever take responsibility for your parent being in prison'

Chesa
I think there were times when I blamed myself. But more common for me was to not take responsibility for things that I did. When I would get into trouble, when I would throw chairs around the house, and you know, scream and you know curse at my adoptive mother I wouldn't take responsibility for that and I would blame other people. I don't think I took responsibility for my parents being in prison either.

Emani
I would tend to agree with that. My mother may answer differently but I don't remember really doing that and I think it's because other family members were very good very early on about making sure I didn't do that.

Questioner # 7 in audience
It was really interesting because I work with children who have a parent in prison and when I go to a homes where the parent is not honest one of the things it's always important to be honest with the kids because a lot of times kids take that responsibility for a parent. I was in a workshop earlier that indicated that. So I thought let me ask them.

Questioner # 8 in audience
Thank you for sharing so openly. I have a quick question, lots of time we focus on the negatives and I was just wondering if the experience that you've had in your life has brought you some strengths that are directly associated with this'

Chesa
Without a doubt. I think it would probably be hard for me to explain, but having parents in prison has opened me up to new worlds. I have met a lot of new, different kinds of people. I have had a lot of different experiences than anybody my age. How many kids my age are speaking in front of 60 to 70 people about their life.

Questioner # 8 in audience
I did feel you were an old soul Chesa

Chesa
Thank you but it's a different life, so of course it's had an affect on me. I think I'm good at solving other people's problems and putting myself in other people's shoes. I think I'm very self reflective and self analytical and self critical and I strive to complete my goals and to improve myself and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that my parents are in prison. Also, I always have had a need to create stability around me and to sort of have a schedule and a plan and be very organized and keep everything in order and know what's going on. I think that, there's a pretty clear connection to the fact that when I was fourteen moths old, everything that was stable in my life was ripped away.

Emani
I think that although I have this kind of fear a lot of people leaving me, that it has made me much stronger and that I may even have a, sounds weird, but a better relationship with my father now because it's been so strained. It's been so up to us to really kind of pull together to make it happen. I think it also allows us to not take a lot of things for granted. I'm in college now. My roommate has both parents and they have this, I don't know if it's a lovely marriage, but she's just like, I hate my dad because he won't buy me a car and I don't want to go out to dinner with my dad. A lot of things, just catch me and I'm just like, you don't know what you've got kid. I think it's having an appreciation for what we've got.

Questioner # 9 in audience
I'd like to commend you and your parents for the well adjusted individuals you appear to be, and I'm curious Emani, does your brother have the same relationship you do?

Emani
Well, they're both men, so they talk a lot more about things my father is not comfortable discussing with me. But yes and no. My brother is younger and so I think that I have a slight memory of living with my father around three or four. I kind of know what it looks like for him to be out, and my brother doesn't know that at all. My brother was just a baby. I think that their relationship is getting stronger, but my brother is getting more difficult. I think that where my father and I have been able to be friends, my fathers really having to play a very hard kind of father role right now. I think that my father has with both of us, a very strong loving, I know my brother can go to him with anything, and that is like our relationship, but I think that there is a little bit more of the discipline stuff going on right now. But, they're definitely close.

Questioner # 9 in audience
Do you attribute your brother's present behavior with any kind of anger at your father for not being there?

Emani
My brother is fifteen and he will be sixteen in a few weeks. And I think he is angry at the world. I think that he blames everybody else for my father being there kind of thing.

Questioner # 10 in audience
I was wondering if you observed through other people that are in your, in the same field you are in, I know everybody deals with incarceration of a family member differently, is the severity of the crime, does it have something to do with how well someone can cope with forgiving or dealing with anger, is there a correlation with the severity of the crime and how quick you are to forgive?

Chesa
I think it does play a big part of that to me is simply the fact that you commit a really serious crime, you're going to be in jail for longer, you're going to be in prison for longer and that puts more of a strain on your relationship with your family and the people on the outside. I think that's a bigger part of it than what the crime is. I know for me, that I don't think it would really matter what my parents did. I respect them as people, they've made a mistake. I know I've made plenty of mistakes. We all do, they made a really big one and a really stupid one, and I know I have too. Everybody does, so

Emani
I think that with some of the other people that I was with on the last panel, one of the girls, it was drugs. I think that she had a lot less permission for that, whereas, when some of the crimes are political, children can feel more proud of that and understand that a little better. When it's things like drugs or robbery, different things like that, I think that it's harder because we're kind of feeling like well that was dumb, you know. I think that , there are different things we associate with being kind of alright. He's right, the end result if that you're not there so either way, it's kind of difficult.

Questioner # 11 in audience
From a kids point of view, what advice would you offer the caregivers that would, the caregiver that would not allow the kids to communicate with the parents that are in jail?

Chesa
That's difficult to answer. To me, communicating with my parents in jail has been a big part of my life and even having my brothers, who aren't my biological brothers have a relationship with my parents in jail has been important. I would say to the caregivers, make the biological parents a big part of the kid's life. That's the best way to deal with it. If they're going to know that they're parents are in jail, and not be able to see them, to me that's a really difficult thing to deal with. I would say let them see them. I understand there are certain circumstances that for whatever reason the caregiver might think it's better for the kid not to see the parent. If they are going to do that, I don't know, it's difficult. The only thing I can say is to try to talk to the kid a lot about the decision. Talk with them, explain to them why they shouldn't see their parents now. If you don't want them to see them have some contact. Have them write letters or phone calls or whatever you can do. To me, having some relationship with the parents is very important especially at younger ages, but.

Emani
For me, unless the children would be in some type of danger, I can't ever see that being an appropriate solution. I don't want this to sound wrong, but I almost don't see it as their right to deny children the right to deny children the right to know or to see their parents. If a child then chooses, I don't like going, I don't like being in the car for five hours, or I don't like…if that's the child's choice, but I don't really, I know kids who haven't been allowed to see their parents and I know that there's a completion process that we kind of go through where we have to make peace with this that they're not able to have and I think it stays like a very open wound for a very long time. My advice would be I don't think that's a very good idea. I don't know the circumstances, but I don't think I'd ever, unless the child was really in danger, support that.

Questioner # 11 in audience
In working with those kids, it's often that I've heard children say they're not allowed to communicate with heir parents because the caregiver, the grandmother or caregiver, can't. I don't know how to advise the caregiver into allowing that kid to communicate with his parents. I don't what right I have in telling them you need to let this child see his parents or communicate with his parents. It's very difficult for the kid, you know working with the kid in a group because they are not able to express anything about their parents because they're not able to communicate with their parents so I didn't know what advice I can give these caregivers into letting these kids see their parents.

Emani
I might want to let them know that those kids are going to be really angry one day. It's going to come back on them. Eventually they're going to figure out someone is denying them this and has been denying them all that time, and I think that they're going to be pretty upset.

Chesa
Two things, I think if you sit down and talk to the caregivers, and you have to be careful not to be condescending and not to try to invade, because it is their life and it is their decision to make ultimately, but if you can help them see that by allowing the kids to have a relationship with the parents, that that's a different thing than saying what the parents did was right. Some people might get that confused. If you can say to the caregivers, it's important for the kid's sake. You may have your issues, a lot of times the caregivers are relatives of the people in prison and they have their own issues and their own hostilities whatever, their own problems with what that person did, with what the person incarcerated did, but you can say look , we're talking about the kid here and what's best for the child. Letting them have relationship with their incarcerated parents in no way says it's okay to be in prison but it's going to help them develop and help keep them out of prison ultimately. You can monitor the relationship and if you feel like it's harming the kid, you're in a position to stop it. But if you just sit down and talk to the caregiver and be rational with them and try to put it in the perspective of helping the kid, that's the best thing to do.

Questioner # 12 in audience
First, I'd like to say that I've really enjoyed listening to both of you, and that for young people you all have some extraordinary insights into your own lives. I'm just thoroughly impressed. I know people twice your age that don't seem to have your insight. You obviously have done a lot of work in terms of looking at yourselves and your lives. I was just wondering what if any impact you've seen the fact that your parents, and in your case, Emani your fathers, what impact has that had on your assuming you are, assuming you've had intimate relationships, what impact have you seen on your lives?

Emani
With me, like I said because I'm daddy's little girl, there have been servere threats from my father about boyfriends. I think he's partly joking and partly he really didn't want me to date till I was like 35. A little bit he had to give up. I think that for reasons my father's not completely responsible for, but a lot he is, I have, it was very hard for me to trust men for a long time. I did date men with criminal records for a while, that were in and out of prison, it was I guess familiar to me, and part of it was probably rebelling. When my mom said that wasn't a good idea, I said well you know your husband is in jail and you've visited him, so a lot of that went on. Now, the person that I probably plan to spend the rest of my life with has no criminal record, and when I look at that now, there's no way that I would ever involve myself with somebody who's interested in that. I'm not trying to spend anymore time than I have to in visiting rooms.

Chesa
I think my parents have always wanted to be a part of my life and be really involved and it's been difficult because a lot of the things I do they can't be part of. But, I do what I can to have them be part of my life. I like having them involved. I like having my friend go visit my parents with me and stuff like that. It's difficult when they're in prison, there are a lot of things they just can't do. They need to, that's an issue they need to recognize and come to terms with. There are some things they are going to be able to do and take part in in my life and there are going to be other things that they're not. I can try to keep them in touch and tell them what goes on, but when I go on vacation with my family and I go to a movie with my friends, they can't be part of that. That has to do with decisions they made when I was fourteen months old.

Tom Alexander
Unfortunately time is up, I'd like to acknowledge the fact that the two young people you see here are representative of many young people. They may be viewed as the exception, but I would respectfully state to you that given the same nurturing, same guidance, the same understanding. I would like for Emani's mother to stand. This is Emani's mother who is also the Executive Director of the Osborne Association. I love these young people. I hope that they have helped you and that they were able to give you some information to take back as you work with young people. All young people have the capacity, have the ability, have the brilliance to be like my two adopted children here. We thank you for taking part in this, I know she has to take a train to New York and he has to take a plane to Chicago so they'll be around for maybe a half-minute. We thank you and we'll be here today and tomorrow. Have a great rest of the conference.

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